Post Vasectomy Pain Forum

Need Advice - 14 days post vasectomy with nerve pain and nausea

#1

Hello all:

As the title of my post says, I’m in pain.

Everything seemed to go okay during surgery. He numbed it and I felt no pain. Took maybe 20 minutes overall, and I’m pretty sure he cauterized instead of using clips. I laid up as much as possible over next 48 hours and iced. Did not have much pain in my testicles other than an ache, and had some burning/sharp type pain up both sides of groin that started almost immediately. (I assume this is the path of the vas?).

5 days in, the nausea started. I’ve been nauseated 9 days, and I’d say most of the day it’s a low 2-3, when I wake up it’s much stronger. (Note, at this point I had not ejaculated and had done no lifting at all).

My testicles are not in much pain, but if they get pressed on, I get that nauseated feeling even greater.

The main thing is my abdomen. It feels tight, like it’s being stretched. I have a sharp pain in my groin on the left side, exacerbated by leaning over or lifting my left leg. Sometimes it happens on the right side, but not as often. (I assume this is pain from the nerves that run alongside the vas). Sometimes the pain shoots into my stomach, sometimes down my leg.

And just to be clear, I’m not trying to jump the gun here, just trying to find some information. I know I’m early. But my Dr. said he has no clue what’s happening and has never heard of nausea as a complication. So I’m trying to get to the real truth.

Do I need a second opinion? Take anti-inflammatories? Lay up for several days? See a urologist for a second opinion? Wait it all out? I’m lost on what steps to take.

Thanks so much. This seems like a very caring group.

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#2

See another Urologist.

You might have an infection or something, who knows.

When my pain started, the first course of action was 6 weeks of heavy anti-inflamatories. I was taking 600 mg ibuprophren 5x a day. You might think about trying that, but you really should speak with some other urologists.

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#3

At 2 weeks in, you have a lot of possibilities in front of you. I’m 6.5 years post-vas. Right now, you should be taking tylenol, ibuprofen, icing, and taking it easy. May want to consider an anti-biotic. Give it some time. Find a urologist who can work with PVPS.

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#4

Think I have some IBU 800 at home. Will start that tonight along with a hot bath. Thanks for your input.

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#5

Will take that advice. Have you heard of others on this board with these issues? Does it sound like PVPS?

#6

Lot’s of guys have issues over the first couple of months. Some take 2 months to heal, some 6 months, some over a year. Vast majority of guys end up alright so try and keep the anxiety under control if possible. Odds are for sure on your side. Many don’t bounce back from this after three days like so many think.

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#7

If you do a search, you’ll find abdomen, groin, and leg pain. You’re still very close to vas, though. Give it some time.

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#8

Thanks for the kind words. I will try to relax.

#9

2 weeks is still to close to tell. Wait, give it time, the others are right and everyone heals differently. Had my vas 13 y ago. I’ve been on this site & others for about 12 years.
Like the others say, get a second opinion, try to find a urologist that understands PVPS and if you cant this site and others are your best bet. Your best bet for a decent uro is a uro that doesn’t do VAS. 3 of the 5 uros I went to after my pain started were (insert bad words here)… Only 1 understood PVPS and offered help. My vas operation went ok, never had pain above a 7 and recovered well with almost no pain, at first.
But the pain never went away for me. Its not terrible but is bothersome.
Time will tell. You should eventually start getting slowly better. If all goes well you’ll get to a point where you get over the major soreness and start seeing a consistent improvement until your 100%.
But like I said and others that progress could take a month or 12 till your 100%. But be aware, after many years of research after my vas and 12 years on these sites I know the facts just like the others that have been here for much time. Fact, 15 to 30% of men have minor to major problems that never go away. 20% of these problems are considered to be in the minor to moderate pain or problem level. 10% are in the upper moderate to major pain problem level. Around 3% are in the really bad area. That’s where most doctors get their 1-3% statistic. But hopefully your in the 70-80% that end up totally ok or like me, easy to deal with the amount of pain I have. But, my wife went through menopause and im saving for a reversal. It probably wont make me fertile again but I hope it relieves the pain I live with.
Good luck, be patient, keep us posted. There’s lots of good people here and lots of good help.

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#10

Hi wayneH, I am seriously considering a vasectomy and came across this site in the course of my research. Seems like a great resource and support group. Could you (or anyone else) point to a source for the above statistic?

Many thanks.

#11

Im trying to relocate the sources I used but I had a hard drive crash that wiped out about 50% of my research over the last 12 years. The USA hasn’t done many studies, the rest of the world has. The studies in the USA frequently quote low, they used to quote <1% of vas with problems
I had notes that I’ve been sending people for years that had these stats in it but the documents that I quoted from were lengthy and I saved them to a different hard drive, that’s the drive that got wiped.
Here is one web site that is also quoting from the same articles that ive used, they don’t include the source quoted…

Here’s one interesting article, shows the reduction in ejaculate after vas, something that most doctors quote at 1-3% reduction but the real research shows +25%. Im just using it as an example of the misinformation many of us are told. Like “you wont notice a change in how much you ejaculate” were most men do notice. Now its not a dig deal for most of us but like I said, this is just one of the articles I could find that represents significantly different information than what were told.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1004.4653&rep=rep1&type=pdf
In one of my other post here I cited the May* Clinic.

One study from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503923/ Shows a study with 15% of men suffering from PVPS (post vasectomy pain syndrome) it also states —
“However, the incidence of PVPS is difficult to estimate due to the lack of prospective studies. One prospective study cites up to 15% of men suffering from PVPS after vasectomy, although the estimate appears much higher than any of the other series…” read the whole article…

These articles took me about 20 minutes to find.
look up PVPS or other things like Pain after Vasectomy.
You will eventually find the stats im quoting. In the meantime im trying to find additional sources to forward to people.

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#12

Yeah definitely see another urologist for second opinion. The morning nausea could be tons of different things though. Hope you get it cleared up bro.

#13

I have been looking for days for such sources without success. The website you link to actually does quote a source for their claim that PVPS occurs in up to 15% of men. The problem is that they say that of the many studies done there is only ONE study that suggests this, and it comes from a paper published in 1992!

On ejaculate reduction, could you clarify where you’re seeing ejaculate reduction rates of 25+% in the study you are linking to? I see no such numbers mentioned at all. I also note that this source you are providing is of a study done in 1979 (literally 40 years ago)!

The last study you cite concludes PVPS occurs in 1-2% but notes that there was one outlier study suggesting 15% of men experience PVPS. I read the actual outlier study. The sample size was 488 men and the 15% refers to men experiencing discomfort after 7 months. More important, only 0.9% of the men in this study said they experienced the kind of discomfort that “noticeably affected their quality of life.” How these questions are phrased is critical.

I would love other sources to try to get my head around all this. As my username might suggest, I am a numbers guy and I deal in data and probabilities, so I’m trying to be disciplined about this.

Many thanks to any who can help!

#14

In table 1. “Volume in ML” 2.85 down to 2.01".
Like I mentioned there is a lot of information available but you have to scour the internet.
I actually bought the book on urology that referenced 1 in 1000 vas with problems, the reference in the book was found to be a circular reference to itself… A doctor of urology on one of these sites actually found the circular reference and notified the publisher and they revised the book… This book was the primary source for universities teaching urology for 15 years. The revised version I bought quoted 1 in 100. I sold the books because they cost me over 400$ together. As far as the age of some of the research, the science involved is pretty standard and the procedures (centrifuge, chemical analysis) are still used today. As far as quality of life being affected I could say my “quality” is still great, is it affected, not really in comparison to all of life, once again, words… I’m in constant pain. On a scale of 0-10, about 1-2 always. flares up to 3-5 about every 3 months & last for about 5 days… The 1-2 pain doesn’t really affect my quality of life, the 3-5 does. The 1-2 pain sometimes keeps me from ejaculating during sex but my wife still helps me finish… The pain in the 3-5 range keeps me from ejaculating almost all together. The one thing to remember is how many guys are really going to say im in pain. There was a study on that, it stated that upon review of men with a vas, 20% said they were in noticeable discomfort in secondary reviews and they said no discomfort in previous questionnaires. The thing is, some men have pain right away and it stays consistent, other men get pain several years later. When the statistics of all men get added up that get a vas and end up with noticeable discomfort within several years its pretty safe to say +15%. I was very tedious in my research. It took about 100 hrs over 6 months to find the studies that correlated together and concluded with a minimum of 15% in pain after vas. Some people handle pain better than others too. I’m really bummed that I lost the hard drive with the work id done. But were really not here to make up stuff just to keep guys from getting a vas. If the May* Clinic sites 1% and 500k vas are performed per year in the US


At 1% that’s still 5k guys with problems a year… I don’t believe 1%. I have personally (in person) talked to 32 guys I know in the last 12 years that got a vas. 9 of them said they had problems that were bad enough to complain about, 2 were significant pain. My own personal study…

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#15

I’ve been studying this for more than a year, and my unscientific impression based on looking at social media is that it’s more like 1-2% that are in pain long term and unhappy about it long term. I think the 10-20% figures probably come from guys who get better in the 3-12 month time-frame. There are just so many guys chiming in to say their vasectomy went amazingly well in the broader social media world, and usually very few saying they still hurt years later.

Unfortunately I can’t science to back up my opinion, so take it for what it’s worth, which I guess isn’t much. :slight_smile:

#16

I tend to agree but am still trying to poke legitimate holes in that logic. At the end of the day, though, institutes like the AUA that quote official risk stats of 1-2% typically skew conservative out of fear of being sued for misrepresenting the facts. In other words, if they’re saying it’s 2%, they probably actually think it’s even lower. Who knows, but if 500K guys are getting this procedure done every year and even 5% of them have long-term problems, that’s 25K guys per year. Over the 5 years this site has been around, that would be 125K guys out there suffering. You’d think a fair amount of them would eventually find their way to a site like this. What’s the total number of lifetime users on this site in the past 5 years? 860, or 0.7% of the total theoretical sufferers. And many of the users here seem to be based outside of the U.S. And that’s assuming only 5% get PVPS. If the numbers really are as high as 15% with PVPS, wouldn’t you expect this site to have attracted a lot more users in its time?

#17

That is a good point. I’ve wondered the same thing. At the same time, we’re assuming that men with such a problem would scour the internet looking for solutions. I’m not sure we can assume that. I think a lot of men don’t want to discuss this.

But, you’re right, even though we see new members all the time, I think we’d see more if the %s are higher.

#18

yeah but online you have anonymity, which changes everything. the forums over at medhelp.org have guys confessing to the most insane promiscuous behavior and medical concerns and consequences as a result. perhaps there’s another more popular forum for guys with PVPS?

#19

@valueinvestor I’ve thought about this a lot and it’s hard to argue with this idea. If their really were this many men with issues, there’s no way it wouldn’t be a more well-known problem in society, especially given the anonymity of the internet.

If I was you, I wouldn’t worry so much about the amount of men that develop PVPS. It really doesn’t matter if its 1/100 or 1/1000. I’m not anti-vasectomy. The reality is that all invasive contraceptives have risks. A vasectomy is one option of many, and you have to decide which is a better choice for you. I am however against the false rhetoric that it’s risk free, and that those risks are not adequately discussed when one is searching for an option. It’s up to you to decide if the risk, no matter how small, of chronic life altering issues are worth it. In your situation, the benefit may outweigh the risk.

You are lucky in the fact that you’ve seen the dialogue of those of us who drew the short straw. If you choose to proceed, you are aware of the risk, and are making an informed decision that many of those on here where not able to make. I can tell you that I was somewhat aware of PVPS. I ignored the risk because I knew for sure I was done with kids. The vasectomy has been my biggest regret, and has dominated my life for over 2 years. I have improved with time, but I’m far from being good.

It’s ironic that prior to the vasectomy, I adamantly refused to have other elective procedures like Lasik. I believe the risk of severe issues to my eyesight, although small, aren’t worth the potential benefits. I rack my brain daily that I didn’t apply that level of scrutiny to my vasectomy decision.

Sorry for the long post. Good luck with your decision either way. If you proceed further, find a doctor who’s honest with you. Any physician that says they’ve never had a patient with problems is probably not being honest with you and will probably offer no help if things don’t go as planned. I went to the top guy in my area. He offered me no help when things went south even after he admitted he has had more than a few end up with chronic pain.

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#20

I collect stories on social media and curate them to post to www.reddit.com/r/postvasectomypain. There are several websites that have lots of PVPS threads. Here are some on my list from medhelp:

https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/7995653
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Loss-of-testicle-from-a-vasectomy/show/785355
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy-problem/show/3418
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/5879607
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Autoimmune-issues-of-Vasectomy/show/225564
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Sexual-Health/After-vasectomy/show/1214579
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-prior-to-ejaculation/show/410665
https://www.medhelp.org/notes/list/897131
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-Microsurgical-Denervation-of-the-spermatic-cord/show/1143270
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Pain--years-after-a-difficult-vasectomy/show/914824
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Can-Vasectomy-cause-blue-balls-to-be-more-prevalent/show/183952
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-vasectomy-pain--prostratitis/show/974389
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Loss-of-testicle-from-a-vasectomy/show/785355
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Undiagnosed-Symptoms/post-vasectomy-pain-and-sexual-dysfunction/show/570081
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-thickening--pain/show/396803
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain/show/916195
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Right-testicle-pain-top--bottom/show/1888273
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/1233708
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy-Autoimmune-Response/show/407954
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Sore-prostate--left-testicle-pain/show/1197856
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Please-we-need-help-about-post-vasectomy/show/1441280
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Male-orgasm-intensity-decreased-post-vasectomy/show/1724269?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget-top
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Undiagnosed-Symptoms/post-vasectomy-pain-and-sexual-dysfunction/show/570081#post_3154878
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/2199303
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Male-Orgasm-pain/show/583577
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Left-Testicle-Pain-times-two-weeks/show/919875
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Pain-prior-to-climax-during-sex/show/1638866
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Painful-Testicular-Granuloma/show/524282
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-problems/show/339955
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-vasectomy-pain/show/225947
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Testicle-pain/show/946142
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/4152654
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-pain/show/997356
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Epidiymitis-post-vasectomy-issues/show/439845
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/4319910
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Treatment-of-Post-vasectomy--pain/show/225601
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Digestive-Disorders---Gastroenterology/Lower-abdominal-pain/show/234118
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Can-Vasectomy-cause-blue-balls-to-be-more-prevalent/show/183952
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Please-we-need-help-about-post-vasectomy/show/1441280?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget-top
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy--Hernia-pain/show/622081
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy-pain-after/show/912349
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Loss-of-testicle-from-a-vasectomy/show/785355
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Sexual-Health/After-vasectomy/show/1214579
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-vasectomy-symptoms/show/972346
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Undiagnosed-Symptoms/post-vasectomy-pain/show/937532
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Testicular-pain-after-ejaculation/show/552788
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Pain-with-erection-and-ejaculation-post-vasectomy/show/226740
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/post-vasectomy-male-orgasm/show/446582
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Pain/show/916327
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Undiagnosed-Symptoms/post-vasectomy-pain-and-sexual-dysfunction/show/570081#post_3154878
https://www.medhelp.org/user_posts/list/567098
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-ejeculation-pain/show/635486
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy-and-Loss-of-Testicle/show/1421581#post_6480454
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy--side-affect/show/481759
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/post-vasectomy-male-orgasm/show/446582
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Testicle-pain/show/182765
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Testicular-Pain-post-Vasectomy/show/225420
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/pain-in-testicles-after-intercourse/show/915010
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Please-we-need-help-about-post-vasectomy/show/1441280
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Source-of-right-testicular-pain/show/724325
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Fertility-and-Trying-to-Conceive/POST-VASECTOMY-PAIN-ANY-HELP/show/454282
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Genetal-Pain-after-Vasectomy/show/915989
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Infectious-Diseases/Vasectomy/show/1680575
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vasectomy-and-autoimmune-problems/show/2114397
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Scar-Tissue/show/1074769
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-Microsurgical-Denervation-of-the-spermatic-cord/show/1143270
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Pain/show/958573
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-vasectomy-problems/show/707837#post_3840237
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicle-pain/show/1001032
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-problems/show/570313
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Undiagnosed-Symptoms/post-vasectomy-pain-and-sexual-dysfunction/show/570081#post_3154878
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Testicle-pain/show/1270172
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/4683312
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-Microsurgical-Denervation-of-the-spermatic-cord/show/1143270
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/post-vasectomy-male-orgasm/show/446582
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/hair-loss---pain/show/1161115
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-Microsurgical-Denervation-of-the-spermatic-cord/show/1143270
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Sexual-Health/After-vasectomy/show/1214579
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy--Hernia-pain/show/622081?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget-top
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Sexual-Health/Ejaculation-following-vasectomy/show/1902224
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Recurring-Testical-Pain/show/368508
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/5804238
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Testical-pain/show/1567801
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Pain/show/913287
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Scar-Pain/show/1074776
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-pain/show/225469
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/post-vasectomy-male-orgasm/show/446582
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Please-we-need-help-about-post-vasectomy/show/1441280
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Testicular-pain-post-vasectomy/show/1255471
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/testicular-pain-Microsurgical-Denervation-of-the-spermatic-cord/show/1143270
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Pain/show/944380
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Can-Vasectomy-cause-blue-balls-to-be-more-prevalent/show/183952
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Male-orgasm-intensity-decreased-post-vasectomy/show/1724269?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget-top
https://www.medhelp.org/personal_pages/user/16417295
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Loss-of-testicle-from-a-vasectomy/show/785355
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Epididymectomy-Vasectomy-Reversal/show/932272
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Prostate-and-Testicle--Pain---Antibiotics-failed/show/659536
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/tender-pain-on-tip-of-penis/show/746010
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164?page=1
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Neurology/Abdominal-pains/show/450387
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Testical-Pain/show/1395053
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Vas-Deferens-attached-to-scrotum-wall-after-a-vasectomy/show/1745895
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-abnormalities-and-pain/show/730282
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/Post-Vasectomy-Chronic-Pain-and-Viagra/show/1614060
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/loss-of-sensation---cant-reach-orgasm/show/287164#post_8976115
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-pain/show/226698
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/Pain-7-months-after-a-vasectomy/show/184222
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/pain--leading-up-to--during-and-after-orgasm/show/445234
https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Urology/post-vasectomy-pain/show/952003

I haven’t vetted all of those links but you get the idea. This is not the only website where men with PVPS post.

(There are duplicates because my spreadsheet has one row per user+thread)

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