Waffling Over Reversal


@crotalus97, and anyone else that reads this thread, I thought I’d clarify what I was saying earlier in regard to some surgeons teaching during their procedures. I don’t want anyone to misunderstand, misinterpret my words, or assume to much about what I said.

Prior to my first reversal, I signed a document that stated some sort of teaching may be conducted during my procedure. Prior to signing the document, it was explained to me on some level, and/or to some extent.

My understanding of what I signed was, students may be watching the procedure, or present during the procedure. Seems taking video of what transpired was a possibility as well. In no way did I interpret anything I signed, or had been explained to me as, a student, or a trainee, etc would be doing anything to me physically.

You also have I understand that when I had my first reversal with Dr P, it was in Gainesville Florida, within the university of Florida (UF Shands). He’s actually relocated two times since 2010.

Back when this all took place, nothing seemed out if the ordinary to me as my surgery was being done at a hospital that’s involved with a lot of teaching as it’s associated with the university of Florida.

I have no idea what paperwork, documents, etc the guy that posted a more detailed, and revealing story nearly a year ago signed, or what he was aware of beforehand.

Bottom line, people need to be fully aware of this kind of stuff beforehand. Back when I experienced some of what I’m talking about, I was a total rookie far as all this vasectomy stuff, hospital stuff, surgery stuff, doctor stuff, all of it. I would’ve never imagined many things I’m aware of now.

A lot of men with pvps are desperate, and perhaps not thinking clearly sometimes because they don’t know any better, and may easily overlook things like I’m talking about for a number of reasons.

Anyway, what I got to say about this kind of stuff isn’t about slander, mud slinging, etc. It’s about awareness, and trying to convey to people that dont know any better that this kind of stuff happens.


I hear what you are saying. Dr. P. had a woman training with him when I had my reversal. He assured me she would not be performing any part of the surgery, just pre-surgery prep and observation. I think I signed off on some form as well. I think I was asked if video could be taken as well but declined that, not sure. Yet more reasons why to never put yourself at the mercy of the doctors unless you have to.

On a side note I am less than a week from my 1 year mark and I have to say I’ve had my best few days in a long time. Things have pretty steadily improved in the last 8 weeks and I am cautiously hopeful that things might continue to improve in the coming months as well.


I’m glad to hear you’ve been trending better, that’s definitely good news.

Stay on top of your count (SA’s). If your reversal fails, and you still think your congested, there’s always papaya seed powder to fall back on.

It was very likely the same woman you spoke of involved in the other story I spoke of earlier. The details can be found in one of the reversal threads on this site.


I never had my SA’s done. I am curious though. I had congestive pain before reversal, but so far the congestion has been relieved since reversal. Thanks for tip on papaya seed, I’ll be sure to remember that.

Dr. P told me with every year that goes by there is a small percentage (~3%) that the reversal will scar off (close). He then claimed that even when this happens the pain usually doesn’t come back. But who knows if he’s massaging the claims on both, right?


I would definitely recommend getting an SA. Theres no point in assuming you are fertile, wearing condoms, assuming this n that far as what’s going on with you, and have no absolutely proof for anything, especially when a simple SA would answer so many questions, and/or assumptions. Not getting an SA can actually lead to a lot of silly head games.

I used to get my SA’s done at a place that had a huge bathroom complete with a leather couch, TV, DVDs, magazines, etc. I didn’t feel uncomfortable taking care of business there, it was definitely turn key, and the results were accurate as my sample was fresh. My insurance covered a lot of the cost, and it seems I had to pay 20-40 dollars out of pocket per visit.

I recommend getting an SA done every 3-6 months indefinitely. Personally, I would not exceed 6 months.

Far as the failure rate of some of the reversal surgeons that get mentioned here regularly go, I’d say that your surgeon has given many people some detailed data that sounded pretty honest to me. I don’t recall what I’ve read down to the wire, but I know where to look for that information. It seems the data suggested a high failure rate, and it seems “at least” half of them fail by the one year mark.

There are several guys on this forum that had a reversal with your surgeon, and many of the reversals failed by month 6.

For the record, and FYI for other readers, there is no proof that reversals were meant to last a long time, and/or indefinitely. My personal opinion regarding long term patency is, get the absolute best surgeon to do you reversal, and it will likely increase the chances of long term patency. My opinion isn’t to be confused with fact, it’s based on personal experience, what I’ve seen n read, what I’ve been told, and what makes sense to me.


Also, a lot of pvps reversal surgeons have their own beliefs far as why reversals work sometimes, and/or may benefit some men.

Some don’t beleive that congestion is even relevant, or perhaps congestion in nature complications are even relevant.

Many of them do different tricks during their procedures because they beleive they may be beneficial.

Some don’t do anything differently than they would for purely fertility cases.

Some may pressure wash the ends of the vas’s during the cleanup, and some do other tricks far as the scarring goes. Some don’t remove any scarring and do tricks to pull that off. Many of these surgeons use completely different suture sizes for the inner lumen, and outer layer, and have their own reasons for why.

Believe it or not, some reversal surgeons may actually use glue instead of sutures (sutureless reversal). I could actually post pics of paperwork to a study I could’ve been a part of with Dr P in 2011 that was just that. That study/trials also included a biowrap as well. I declined the free trial, and had a redo reversal with Dr Marks, and I’m glad I went that route.

To my knowledge, the study I’m speaking about didn’t produce results to rave about, and this kind of stuff isn’t being done on anyone where the trials I spoke of took place. That doesn’t mean someone out there isn’t using the glue method, thus, please ask questions before reversal.


Can this actually be the case ??

In recent times I have looked more into reversal statistics and have found such difference of opinion both medical and from others.

It’s actually quite frustrating as it’s very hard to know what the actual true figure is,on reversal surgeon I spoke to directly offered a 85% full pain resolution.

Another guys PA sent me on info and stated that they recommend to wait at least 2 years (if possible) as he believes it can lessen spontaneously within this time frame.He also offers a 50% full pain resolution.


Based on everything I know about this, my answer would be yes, but not in all cases.

Several pvps reversal docs here in the states agree that when reversals fail, the pain doesn’t return in many cases.


I wish there were much more scientific study of this problem. Maybe what happens is that the vas gets mostly blocked with scar tissue, such that most sperm are blocked, but enough fluid can get out to prevent discomfort? Maybe nerves re-connect up and stop complaining so much?


@Ethan_Scruples, all good points.

If I wrote out everything I know about this, it would be very long, and in the end, nobody would be any more certain far as answers go. Honestly, I’ve probably wrote most of it out in the last 3-4 reversal threads that are 100~ posts long.

If you read about what happens to men post vas far as short term, and long term blockage, blowouts, scarring, etc, etc, there’s to many variables, and they vary man to man.

Tack on immune systems, the body’s ability to isolate the threat of a foreign substance in the body such as spermatozoa, this stuff gets very technical, and I don’t know anyone that has all the answers, or can answer better than another far as pvps doc’s to doc’s go. Beleive me, I’ve asked some of the best of the best, AKA, people that would know if anyone knew everything, and they don’t know everything.

Vasectomy is intended to be permanent. Once the blood testies barrier is broken, the consequences are very likely permanent. As others have said, you can’t undo the vasectomy, but that isn’t to be confused with the idea that it’s impossible you can’t make better out of it.


Unfortunately, once you tack on the risks involved far as nerve damage, complications, failure, etc, etc. This stuff gets beyond complicated, and is a bit sketchy at best.


Maybe the SA’s show that you aren’t fertile, but it’s because the immune system is sensitized and kills all of the sperm before they make it out the front door…


Some of the best of the best say the risks of ending up worse off via reversal is approximately 1-2%, or a 1-2% chance of ending up worse off in the long run.

I’ve heard, or read of several repeated reversal consultation conversations from top pvps reversal surgeons that claim they’ve never had anyone get worse via reversal, but I tend to believe they are full of it, or at least to some extent. If a man takes 6-12-18-24~ months to recover, did it make him worse?

Its not a whole lot different if you are rolling dice, and looking for snake eyes. You could roll all night at a casino, and never do it, another could walk in right after you, and roll snake eyes a couple times within the hour. It’s mathematical, statistical, and the probability will hold true over time.

I do tend to believe these numbers are somewhat accurate. If it was much higher, you would see the evidence in forums like this one, fertility forums, mommy forums, etc, and the internet would be covered in stories about reversal screwing up boat loads of men.


Yea, I’m not sure about that far as concrete answers go, but I do believe there is some truth in what you are hypothetically speaking about.

Our systems vary man to man, and you can see the evidence of it on this forum alone.


I feel pretty confident saying your body doesn’t kill the sperm either, or not in the vast majority of cases, although that would probably be a good thing if it did, lol (a hypothetical joke).

It causes the sperm to be immotile, isolates them, etc, etc. We can prove a bit of that at minimum.


So at one year post-reversal performed by Dr. P. here was my sperm count:
1,000,000 sperm/ejaculate.
He also told me, “7 motif/ high calcium” (did I hear him right?)
Note: these are my first and only sperm count results.

I understand that this is low, but for pain purposes how bad (or not-so bad) is this?


@crotalus97, I’m not sure what kind of documentation you have far as the SA you speak of above. I’ve never seen, nor heard anything like that before far as the numbers you speak of, etc. 1 million sperm/ejaculate? I’m confused.

Below is a copy of some documentation I received years ago post redo reversal. It’s easy to understand, and covers the mainers, and/or basics. I got the paperwork from the place I did my SA at (no middle man).

I’m almost certain there’s another version of an SA that covers some other things, and it seems I’ve heard that version refered to as a “complete SA”. Seems it costs more to.

My SA results (semen analysis results) below are focused on volume, count, and motility.


@crotalus97, Just a wild guess at what “one million sperm / ejaculate” might mean here, and it doesn’t translate well at all if you have your facts straight.

Considering I have 154 million in my total ejaculate in the SA results above, 1 million in your total ejaculate doesn’t sound good at all.

If you understand my paperwork correctly, you see that my motility was 74%, which translates into 112 million “motile sperm” in my total ejaculate (part of the 154 million).

In your case, and at this point, we have no idea what your motility is.

If you have a middle man involved with your SA results, as it seems you do, just have them send you a copy of the results, or go to the place that did the testing and get a copy. I have a copy of every single SA I ever had done.

I’m hoping you are mistaken far as your SA numbers go.


@crotalus97, idk why you not get an SA at approximately 6 weeks post reversal, followed by another 6 weeks later, and another 3 months later, another 3 months after that, and so fourth. That would’ve been appropriate.

I had one every three months up till 18~ months out. My numbers were fairly stable shortly post redo, but definitely declined a bit for the most part every 3 months. Seems at 18~ months I was over 100 million still, but I went 6 months with no SA at the advice of my peers, and at 24-26 months out, I was zero million.

Catching problems, poor numbers, poor motility, etc early is key far as keeping some reversals from failing early in the game, and that’s why the protocols I spoke of above would’ve been a whole lot more appropriate far as post reversal follow up protocols go.

What I’m saying is also why I tell everyone to keep up with their SA’s, and don’t exceed 3-6 months in-between them. Based on my own experience, and what I’ve personally seen, read, etc, NSAID’s, steroids, prednisone, medrol dose packs, etc will not be effective in saving failed reversals. You got to catch the problems early.

And just for the curious, my first SA numbers at 6 weeks out post redo were low, and the motility was poor. I never took any prednisone, just celebrex. I followed all my surgeons post op protocols, and advice down to the wire. At 6 weeks out I was approximately 30-60 million, and 30-40% were motile. Seems my numbers, and motility peaked by month 6ish~.


At six weeks post-reversal I had such terrible pain which was triggered by ejaculation. At three months I was still too scared to ejaculate. Dr. P. never encouraged me to get my SA numbers. It was a rough year for me and so only recently did I even care what my numbers were. I requested for my SA records, when I get them I’ll post. Thanks for your replies @RingoStar.