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Still here, considering reversal again


#41

I need understanding to justifying putting my boys under the knife again. I’m not sure why a reversal would help me. My testicles don’t hurt, I don’t have pain during or after sex, and my epi isn’t engorged. Now…that being said, I’ve had a TON of systemic issues since the vasectomy but I still don’t understand how a reversal would fix that, unless the simple act of reducing the number immune complexes is beneficial. I took T injections for 4 months with minimal improvement. For me, that was a “reversal trial” and I didn’t benefit much from it.

I may still do it. If I could guarantee that I would remain patent for the rest of my life I’d do it. I’ve found enough literature that I simply don’t believe that vasectomy is healthy for the body. At this point, I think the most benefit from reversal is keeping the foreign proteins out of the body. Reversal would help but I don’t look at reversal as a permanent procedure. I view reversal as a 5 year window of fertility for one last baby. If I close up, personally and for the reasons I want reversal, closure would be a failure for me.

I think Marks is the man. If I were to reverse, he’s probably the only person on the planet that I would let do it. I was born and raised in Mesa, AZ and have many doctor friends in Tucson that are U of A alum. It would be an easy convenience and I don’t think there’s a better surgeon for pure reversals.

I should add that I discussed my systemic issues w/ Marks and he has seen reversal help these situations. However, its a huge unknown. I like being sterile for the benefits of being sterile, I’d prefer not to roll the dice on another surgery, and most importantly, I don’t like my odds that it’ll fix my issues.


#42

Aschiro put it best, reversals probably work because there is a cleanup component that acts like a neurolysis. Sutures, clips and cauterized scarred vas ends are removed. I had a lot of sharp burning pain go away with reversal.


#43

Makes sense. I asked him about the reversal failing a few years down the road, and what that meant for the pain. His take was that a small percentage do close up, but he didn’t think pain would come back in that case. He said that his thought was that it closed up so gradually that the body had time to adjust (not sure if that means stretching or absorption or what). In the vasectomy, he thought it was the sudden closure that caused the congestion problems and the inflammation thereof (not to mention clips/cautery, etc.).


#44

I’ve been in pain since week 3 after the vasectomy. It peaked at about month 4, and is better now than it was then. It’s now just nuisance/discomfort more than pain. Just feels swollen and hot and “wrong” all the time. There are areas in the scrotum I can touch wrong sometimes and it feels like I was kicked in the balls. When the ball/cord pain is bad, it radiates into my upper thighs.


#45

@MikeO I agree with aschiro 100% on that end. Naturally, you’d think an open ended conversion would do the same thing. But yes, there’s a scar tissue maintenance portion that has extreme benefit.

@Tempe5 He told me the same thing and I tend to agree with him. Shut off the hose slowly instead abruptly, makes sense. For me, my pains aren’t congestive in nature. They are much more widespread. If I were to pin it down, I’d say it’s a combination of neuromuscular issues from a damaged cord and arterial issues from antigen complexes. Both of those are guesses, the former has much more backing than the latter.

He did offer to do just my bad side. I just can’t comprehend how I’d benefit. It’s an expensive shot in the dark and I’d lose the only benefit I’ve gotten out of this mess - sterility.


#46

Your pain sounds similar to my pre-reversal pains. I had pain radiating up the inguinal canals. Felt like a steel brush was being pressed into me. It was awful. That was back in late 2005 / early 2006. Gabapentin put that pain at bay, thanks, and then I had the reversal a few months later.

I’m a fan of reversal. Took me about 5 months, but I attained pain-free status for 2 years, then a 6-7 month relapse, then 7 years pain-free, now this relapse. I think Aschiro’s theory is correct that the process of reversal ends up cleaning out some of the pain generators even if you aren’t congested. I wasn’t congested. Doc said afterward I was leaking on both sides.

Yours is a tough call. It sounds like the trend is your friend. Nerves take forever to calm down as I experienced it with my back and my sack. I had a consult with Dr. Marks in 2008-09 during my first relapse. Great guy. He didn’t think a re-do reversal would help me after my SA was 20MM. I later shot a 60MM and that put re-do reversal out of my mind for sure. But, if I ever needed one, he’d be at the top of my list.


#47

Our mind can play the trick game, the day before my reversal i started to feel better and that was even after traveling over 3500km. But am glad i did this reversal i had nothing to lose plenty to gain.


#48

Yes same thing happened to me Loz! I even went for a run a few days before my surgery (which normally causes me to be curled up in a ball afterwards!) and i actually felt ok… made me think twice, but yes i think it somehow is your body/mind playing tricks! Interesting though and makes you wonder if some part of all this is psychological


#49

Funny enough @Tempe5, I just had a conversation with Dr Marks a few days ago. I thought I’d add my experience with him. Although, I am happy with the urologist I am dealing with in Louisville, I wanted to get a third opinion from him. First off, like everyone has said, he was a super nice guy and he was very easy to talk to. Some things that really surprised me were

  1. He thoroughly went over all the conservative measures to try first. He is a huge proponent of pelvic floor physical therapy for everyone because he has seen some very good results with it.

  2. He said the guy here in Louisville was a very good surgeon and it wouldn’t be a bad decision to use him if I did decide on a reversal. He did say that he believes him and Burrows do a better job, but said that most doctors would say that.

  3. He was very respectful in regards to the PUR clinic and encouraged me to talk with them, but I informed that I have already done that. He doesn’t appear to really like the “destructive” procedures (neurolysis, etc), but said that it appears that many men get good results so obviously something they are doing is working.

  4. He made it very clear that he is pro reversal and to take that for what it was worth.

  5. He said that every man has different symptoms, some very localized to the scrotum and others who have an array of systemic issues. He has done reversals on men who may have any and all symptoms and that a reversal can help to alleviate all of them. He also quoted me on a 90-95% success rate of partial or complete resolution of pain/symptoms.

  6. Like @Tempe5, he did not seem to push me into reversal and said that in his opinion, that I would not need a reversal, or any surgical procedure for that matter, and that I would probably never call back. Obviously I asked, how do you know that? He stated that he’s been doing this a long time and his instinct has gotten pretty good. He based his opinion about me on our conversation including my current mental status/thoughts about my situation, that my symptoms seem to be subsiding with time even if that’s being aided with medication, and that I have good support at home. He quoted that he was 66% sure that I wouldn’t call him again. HAHA

  7. I told him I was going to give myself a year before deciding on surgical intervention especially given that I am currently not disabled but limited with certain physical activities. He said that giving myself a time frame is a bad idea because you may be feeling much better at that time but get frustrated you aren’t perfectly healed and jump into a reversal when all you will need is some more time. He also thinks that most men will wake up one day and just know they can either live with it or just know it’s time to act. Interesting take on it. .

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to add my experience. If I do decide on a reversal I would be hard pressed to not choose him.


#50

For me I think it’s partly scar tissue in fascia that was not meant to have scar tissue. That stuff is supposed to move and slide. It gets stretched and pulled etc.[quote=“Kyvas, post:49, topic:2058”]
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Marks is about as straight a shooter as you will find. I don’t think anyone that does reversals prefers working with pain guys when compared to fertility people. I sensed a little of that with him but he took care of me and treated me with respect in the consult so I would never judge him for that.

I am one of those 90-95% guys that got partial relief. Partial is misleading thought because we don’t operate on binary scale of wellness. It’s a continuum of noxious stimuli. The reversal took the top off my pain. I was completely disabled before. Now I just live with pinching/pulling/burning when I sit a lot. I could not sit before. It was way too painful. For that I’m grateful.

But, yeah. He’s one of the good ones.


#51

This sounds more like it ^^^

Regardless of what statistics are being thrown out there far as reversals remaining open, I still tend to think the numbers are exaggerated.


#52

Pretty interesting, Kyvas. Seems like he has a standard spiel for guys with improving pain, and guys that seem like they haven’t quite decided. I think that with something as expensive/invasive as a reversal, a guy has to be pretty dead set on it or it’s not going to happen. I also think that Dr. Marks understands the value of positive thinking, and if he can send guys off with a positive thought and encouragement, he’ll do it.


#53

Having dealt with Dr Marks myself, I totally think he is that guy ^^^

I apologize if I sound like the devil’s advocate regarding reversal sometimes. Back in my day, guys would only talk about all the possible positives regarding reversal, even enhancing statistics, etc, etc. Groups of men would encourage others to do it, best decision of my life, and so on. I’ve even seen guys that had a reversal, they smoked, drank, etc, etc, and years afterward, they still reported all good. I later came to find out some of them never even had an SA.

I try to give anyone a fair look at both sides of the story far as reversal goes. I have seen, and experience to much to not share my thoughts, etc with everyone else.

I do want to offer hope to the new victims that are just learning, but at the same time, I don’t want to offer false hopes, misleading hopes, or inaccurate ideology’s.


#54

Yes, and unlike some other docs I’ve talked with, he seems to offer the positive encouragement in a genuine manner. I don’t feel like he was doing it just to make me feel better, but rather legitimately thinks, that based on his experience, I won’t need any surgical intervention.


#55

@RingoStar, the statistic is probably accurate but pain is not binary. It’s a continuum. You can get 5% relief and you count towards that group of 90% that can be considered having “partial relief”.


#56

I’m not debating whether any of the statistics in this entire thread are accurate, or inaccurate, I just don’t want anyone getting wrapped up in anybody’s statistics that have no controlled data to prove what that are saying. That includes any of the doctor’s/urologists we speak of regularly.

Far as some of these guys instincts go, none of the surgeons I have ever dealt with called me up, and asked me how I was doing how may years later. I’m not sure how some of them come up with all these statistics with so little to go on.


#57

Oh I hear you on that.


#58

agreed. reversal without a doubt can solve or at least lower pain. personally my urologist followed up about 8 months later to ask how my pain level was/reversal success. after I advised it had improved (which is true) but still had a lot of nerve pain was advised that nerve pain can take up to 18 months to settle down. it will be 18 months in about 2 weeks, I don’t expect a further follow up, caring email unfortunately and nerve pain is certainly here to stay…


#59

I hear you brother. I second that.

If we were in a fertility forum, we would look at reversal in a different way far as long term patency.

In pvps forums, all of a sudden a vasectomy reversal has the potential to last a long time far as patency.

I’m not sure who’s fooling who.

This stuff ties into the reason I believe there is more going on with reversal for pain other than fertility. Seems I already mentioned some of that earlier ^^^


#60

I am to early to know if reversal will help although i feel positive. 1 thing is as i make my journey home tomorrow i have given this my best shot and am in a better head space. All that shit leaking inside me open ended was no good. All of that stuff Marks says sounds positive.