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Still here, considering reversal again


#1

Edited: to say that I’m going to wait a few months for the actual surgery, so the papaya seed extract effects can wear off, and just in case of miraculous healing :slight_smile: . And also because Dr. Marks recommended I wait awhile longer.

Recap of my story:

Had my vasectomy 1/29/16, so I am nearing the 18 month mark.

My pain has decreased consistently from about month 4. I had a lot of tingling, needle like pains, prostate pains, upper thigh pains, etc. around that time and most of those have subsided. What I’m left with is a dull ache in my epis, and the occasional ache from the vas site (mostly the left).

My new symptom (and probably the thing that’s spurring me toward reversal finally) is an aching sensation in my right epi/vas area that happens immediately before ejaculation. It’s the first pain that I can definitively say feels like pressure/congestion. It’s as if the epi/vas is contracting pre-ejaculation but has nowhere to send the sperm.

Also, around February of this year, I started taking Papaya Seed extract, and it seemed to help. My testis felt “lighter” and it seemed like all the aching died down about 10%, so to me, that’s another indication that pressure from sperm is contributing for me.

My main fears are 1) that my pain is not congestion related, and reversal won’t help and 2) that reversal will make me worse via nerve damage. 1 seems reasonable, and 2 seems unlikely based on people here and what Dr. Marks has said about reversals not making people worse.

I’m in Phoenix, so I’ll likely go see Dr. Marks.

I’ll update this thread with the details for posterity.


#2

Well, this post just created a lot of emotion for me. I’ve read your posts and kept hoping that one day you’d report that you were all good. I’m sorry that isn’t the case, and I hope the reversal ends your nightmare. Please keep us posted as things move forward. Good Luck.


#3

Sorry, man. I know the feeling. There were a couple posters on here when I first arrived who had “gotten out” after 6 or 9 months, and they were my only sources of hope at the time.

I really have improved a lot, and my quality of life has improved tremendously relative to the first 6 months or so, but it’s just not quite enough, and the spike in discomfort coupled with the new aching pre-ejaculate pain is the proverbial last straw for me, I think.


#4

I just want you, and everyone else to be aware that ICVR/Dr. Marks will have you sign a piece of paper with a witness present that clearly states the reversal may not help w your pain, may be a failure far as return of sperm, could make you worse, other complications, etc, etc. I signed a document as described years ago, I feel pretty confident saying it still exists.

I have seen few made worse by a reversal, and I have read countless stories, and talked w a lot of guys that had one. It certainly happens tho.

I’d say the majority of men have no regrets about it. I certainly don’t regret it. I feel putting your body back in order, and giving it a chance to heal itself is a great first option for the majority, but they have to make that choice for themselves.

I feel you have picked the right guy to do your reversal. I wish you the best with whatever you decide to do.

Good luck


#5

Appreciate the advice here, and all the other spots you have offered on this board.

You have probably said this in a previous post, but what’s your best take on why your reversals failed?


#6

I feel I wrote my best take on it a couple weeks ago. Keep in mind that fertility isn’t necessarily required to get relief with a reversal for pain. It’s not unfeasible to theorize some nerves may repair themselves over time in your natural state either. In your case, I feel confident saying, you will get a full clean up with Dr. Marks.

You can go read all kinds of mommy forums about reversals, reversals failing, reversal failure down the line, redo reversals, re-redo, re-re redo reversals, etc, etc. I have heard so much stuff in these pain forums over the years, and after many years of hearing, seeing, experiencing it for myself, etc, etc, I really believe many put to much stock into the idea of staying open indefinitely. We are not talking about just one repair here either, it’s two. IMO, that part alone is another crap shot for sure.

We could go way out on a limb here, and theorize that getting healthier than 99% of people on the planet will spare you a bi-lateral reversal failure. I’m not thinking so, but there are those that believe it. I suppose anything is possible, but I don’t believe all these reversal failure stories I have read in pain, and mommy forums were because of this, and that. I believe reversals are destined to fail. Show me something that definitively proves otherwise.

Here’s what I wrote in another thread couple weeks ago,

I can elaborate a ton on this vas/reversal subject.

I’ve seen many men hem, and haw about why reversals fail, reversal this, reversal that. A lot of what people are saying is not medical science, nor been proven in any way.

Given the fact that my first reversal was basically a failure out the gates, and what @jsh is asking about the 9800 dollars, it’s all part of why I wish I had gone to ICVR the first time. I didn’t have time to be screwing around with anyone of a lesser caliber. This is my life we are talking about, not some reversal surgeons paycheck.

Part of Dr Marks pre reversal questionnaire was, how easily do you scar when you get cut, or injured? I didn’t think much of it then, but think more into it now days.

Dr Marks described my inner lumen as wispy. We are talking about something that’s comparable to a human hair far as diameter, but it’s not rigid like a human hair. Imagine the tini bit of scar tissue required to close this repair off.

I know stents have been tried in the past in an attempt to keep the repair open with no luck. This part of the body wants to scar back closed once it has been breached by vasectomy. I don’t have all the answers/facts far as why some reversals stay open, and some do not other than “what seems to be” the obvious.

I’ve always said I believe my own immune system has been part of my PvP/s from the beginning. That said, it just reinforces my theory’s on why I can’t seem to keep a reversal open, and perhaps in other cases as well.

I also had the butcher version, closed ended vasectomy. My unorthodox vasectimist removed more of the vas than he was supposed to. He wasn’t thinking about me, he was thinking about himself far as being sued if I became fertile again via natural recanalization. I didn’t know any better back then.

I lost even more vas at the time of my first reversal. A recipe for more disaster IMO far as staying open indefinitely on a redo reversal.

Do I scar easily? I wouldn’t say so, but I do heal extremely well from just about anything. Do I have scars on my body from previous injuries? Yes I do, and I think that’s pretty normal.

The average sperm count of a reversed man that gets his partner/wife pregnant after a vasectomy reversal is around 5 million. At the peak of my redo reversal, my count was around 160 million/80% motile. I didn’t have poor numbers by any means.

I’ve had people say it was tobacco, cannabis, mountain dew, amongst other things that caused my second reversal to fail. While this is easy say, there is no medical proof for such allegations. The staff at ICVR offered me a mountain dew, water, or other soft drink within minutes of me coming to in the recovery room. I took them up on the mountain dew, lol.

Reversal is a crap shoot IMO. You never know what your gonna get. I might not be fertile, but I still reap the rewards of a full clean up, and being put back close as possible to my natural state again. I have no regrets far as going down the reversal road other than not going to ICVR the first time. If I thought a third reversal would stay open indefinitely, I’d give it a shot again, but I’m smarter than that.


#7

Good luck. I hope it works out for the best.

I’m still early in the recovery process, at least according to this forum (9 weeks) but I’m already thinking about a reversal. At this point I don’t feel a lot of hope that things will get better.


#8

Please keep us in the loop. Hope that this works out for you!


#9

all the best. let us know how you get on. seems to be a reasonable fix to some.


#10

Good luck to you. I’m in the same boat, although a bit earlier (9 months post vas) out. I’ll be going for a reversal in 2 months.

A lot of my nerve issues have improved and all I take is 2 extra strength tylenol every day and alpha lipoic acid (a vitamin that helps with nerve damage supposedly).

I get the same epi pain on ejaculation, and according to my reversal surgeon (Dr. Jarvi) pain with sex/ejaculation is a definite sign of congestive pains.

Of course there’s a slight chance of getting worse, perhaps 1-2%, but I mean, what are the odds of being in the 1-2% of PVPS guys and then ending up one of the 1-2% post reversal pain guys?

Good luck to you.


#11

Question: Should I stop with the papaya seed extract now that I’m planning a reversal? Does it matter? Does the flow of sperm vs fluid through the vas matter?


#12

I’m pretty sure that during the reversal they resect out part of the vas to get to the healthy section. Then they will aspirate fluid from the vas and look under a microscope to make sure there is good quality sperm present. I would think that you would want your testicles producing sperm to aid the surgeon. Definitely ask Dr Marks though to be sure


#13

Yes during reversal they take a fluid sample. Apparently if there’s no sperm present then they skip doing a vas to vas and go vas to epi, which is trickier, longer and probably riskier.

You’ll probably also lose a lot more vas that way, so a re-do reversal in the future might not be possible.

I’m betting that Dr. Marks will tell you to stop taking the extract.


#14

I would definitely get off the papaya seed powder if you are going to have a reversal. You should post your experience with it in the papaya seed powder thread as well.

Dr Marks will definitely take samples of your fluid. You will get pictures of the left, and right samples taken, as well as your repairs. I posted pictures of mine in the “various questions, pvps talk/etc” thread.

I can’t say I’ve ever seen anyone with pvps have a vas to epi reversal. Seems some pvps reversal surgeon docs are against it for pvps, and do vas to vas only.

I hope what I have said doesn’t discourage you from having a reversal, I was just being straight up with you when you asked my take on why.


#15

Ringo I would agree with you that all reversals will eventually fail. I’m still of the adage that guys that get better with reversal are due to the nerve clean up (mini neurolysis) more than anything and if the body did have an autoimmune response from either being open ended or having blowouts that can of worms is already out and a reversal Wont fix autoimmune damage only cleaning up your diet etc. will. I heard Dr p is no longer using the biowraps like I had in my reversal because they didn’t prove to help keep things open and I’ve even read a lot of nerve docs are no longer using biowraps because they can cause scar tissue and tetrapods the nerve. If someone is truly only having congestion pain removing the epididymus would solve the problem better than a reversal. I have a friend who stupidly had a vasectomy even though he had seen what it did to me. He got lucky he had only congestion pain and removed the epididymus 6 months after and he is completely pain free now.


#16

That’s kind of what I was thinking. Also, according to that monkey study, it could take 6 months to restore sperm production after taking it.

I think I’m going to schedule the reversal for several months out just to make sure I have sperm, and to give me an out in case I get better.


#17

I am curious how much (your average daily dose), and for how long you have been taking papaya seed powder. I still think it would be great if you would post that part in the original papaya seed powder thread that has the study in it.

It’s hard for me to say one way, or another about you holding off on the reversal far as the papaya goes. Primary reason is, I don’t know the answer to the questions above. Something tells me you have been taking enough, and for long enough to be concerned. That said, it brings a question to the table. Are you really congested?

This whole papaya seed powder thing has a lot of unknowns. We don’t have any controlled studies that prove how effective it is on the average man. We don’t know how effective it is on a man that has an abnormally high sperm count. We don’t know about so many things that have already been brought up in the “two” papaya seed powder threads. I can already see the look on Dr Marks face if you asked him if you should stop taking papaya seed powder. He’s probably gonna be like😕

I’m going to go with my gut and say, I think there’s a lot more going on with reversals for pain than just fertility. That’s not just what I think, that’s what several top tier pvps reversal surgeons would tell you as well.

Bottom line, I think your concerns are very logical, sensible, and reasonable, but ^^^


#18

Totally agree with all this.

I’ll post this in the papaya thread as well, but I took it from Jan-Mar, every day (missed a few weekends I’m sure) about a teaspoon once a day. Took a month off because I ran out, then again for 2.5 months, same dose (a teaspoon scoop).


#19

I hear you brother. I feel I have given you my best here. Feel free to PM me if you ever need.


#20

When I went to schedule my initial consultation with Dr. Marks, the receptionist was going to assign me to their other doctor (Dr. Burrows), and said that “Dr. Marks is kind of handing over the pain patients to him these days.” Thought that was interesting. Maybe Dr. Marks is getting ready to retire? Or he just can’t take dealing with us anymore :slight_smile:

Anyway, I requested Dr. Marks anyway. I’m sure the other guy is just as good, though.