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Spreading the word to stop the butchering - it's time to take action


#62

Mike, this is a fantastic idea.

A victim advocacy group would be easier to set up than a ‘foundation’ as I suggested previously. That way it wouldn’t necessarily have to apply for non-profit status and all the other crap that comes with it.

I think this letter should also accompany the AUA or CUA (depending upon provider location) guidelines of chronic pain statistics, and they should also point out what chronic pain numbers the victim was told by said dr.

And maybe include a little blurb to the effect of ‘in the future to prevent possible litigation, you are strongly encouraged to inform all of your patients of the current chronic pain statistics.’

Imagine if they told all of their patients that the odds are about 1 in 50 of chronic pain in their junk. I’ll bet 80% of guys would still go through with it. I wouldn’t have. 2% chance of life altering consequences is horrible odds.


#63

If someone could help me with the verbiage of the letter/form. I don’t think we need to send a lot of information to the doctor. The information for the medical board would need to include details that would likely constitute PHI so there needs to be a waiver signed if we are centralizing this data. If stored electronically it should be encrypted.


#64

I thought Mike’s letter was quite good as is. Add in the legal bit and attach a highlighted AUA or CUA document and we should be set. Are you wanting to include details on follow up procedures for the individual patient?

My original database idea was geared towards showing, as we already know, that all vasectmists will eventually be on the list. Would it be worth having a database showing which doctors have been sent letters (and the number of letters)?


#65

I’m currently at work or I’d take a stab at massaging the text together.


#66

I agree with your original idea. I think any such list should not have my sort of bias in its creation. Disregarding certain individuals from such a list wouldn’t create any “true” list. Bias is bias, and that’s why it would sure be nice to have some entity that has no bias, nothing to gain, nothing to lose, etc etc to be involved in such a undertaking.


#67

Mike, I really like that letter idea. I’m pretty inactive on this site, though I pretty much lived here after my vasectomy over 3 years ago. But this is a great idea.

I’ve thought many times about going back to my original doctor. He left that office shortly after my vasectomy and I don’t think he has any idea of the ways his simple procedure altered my life forever. I don’t desire harm for him, but would love for him to know.


#68

Kevin,

I am not a very confrontational person. That’s no my personality. I’ve always been a happy go lucky good natured guy. I never understood people who held grudges or had vendettas. I just never understood why anyone could do that. I want to believe the best about people and I want to be liked. That last part is probably the most accurate statement. It’s not a virtue btw to want to be liked so much. I did not go in because could never adequately express to him how badly he ruined my life and it would not serve any purpose for me in a practical way other than tipping my hand. I want to let him know so he can’t say he never messed anyone up with that procedure but I also did not want him to know. I remember when I was about to get my reversal and wanting to get as much information about my original vasectomy I went in and asked for all my documentation about the vasectomy and I could see they were freaking out. I asked for any notes and medical records on the procedure. I wanted this for Dr. Marks because I naively believed it would help Dr. Marks in knowing what to do lol. They just open you up and deal with what they have to deal with. When you go into a doctors office and start asking for all your medical records and any documentation they have about a surgery performed on you they freak out. I got this bullshit piece of paper from my doctor that I think he just scribbled on a piece of paper while I was there in the office to give me something that was something about “lidocaine”. That’s the only thing on the note I could make out. It was fake. That document he gave me was made up and not a real note of any kind. He KNEW I was in there because I was f’d up and thought I was about to sue. I never got a copy of the informed consent document I signed, which I’m sure had nothing about chronic pain on it. I did get a copy of the pathology report that showed .9 and 1.1 cm of vas taken on each side. I don’t think there is any way that was fake but the note with his writing I got was just BS and like I said they did not produce the informed consent document I signed. It was 5 years after my vasectomy so I did not have a copy. I have since learned to keep everything in your own file because you just can’t rely on and should not rely on your provider to do it. I mean if you get messed up because of a surgery it will all the sudden become adversarial and then you can’t expect them to produce it.


#69

@RingoStar, How about having INSURERS AGREE TO PAY FOR VASECTOMY REVERSALS? Since they will continue to pay for vasectomies, which they fully support, then give the consumer the guarantee that if you are not satisfied with it you can get a reversal paid by them? Maybe this can be a different approach in the interim…but I don’t know, it could it backfire…many vasectomies then many reversals and ultimately beaten men.


#70

I do agree that reversals for pain should be covered by insurance.


#71

@Hopeful, While I do agree that insurance should pay for reversals for pain, I think a big part of why they are not involves several things.

Here in the states, such a rule/law would likely be abused by many vasectimist’s, and/or vasectomy reversal surgeons. The price of a reversal in NYC vs Tucson is considerably different. Reversals can be as low as 2500-5k -7-10k -15-25k. It depends on where they are located, how they are done, etc.

Insurance gets abuse when insurance is willing to pay for anything. Some may bill insurance 25-30-40-50+K for a reversal. This type of abuse already exists all over our medical system, medicade, etc, and within insurance in general.

No doubt vasectomy is already in bed with our medical, legal, and political system/s here. What they are doing is more geared toward male sterilization, not helping people.

Here in the states vasectomy isn’t targeting specific individuals as much like it does in third world countries. Here, you can pay for a reversal, this corrective procedure, that corrective procedure, pay for more and more crap, and keep on paying. It’s the American way.

If you were the leader of a country, and had all these people on social welfare that you had to write a monthly check to that were getting pregnant left and right, men that could not afford to support themselves let alone the girl he gets pregnant, and the child in the first place, no doubt I’d be pissed off to. Give them all a vasectomy. Make vasectomy available to all them people.

You can bet such systems exist in this country, and elsewhere. They are disguised with rainbows, smiles, and happy faces. That stuff is all over the internet.

I like to compare vasectomy to big tobacco, GMOs, Monsanto, leaded gasoline, and down the line. Very bad stuff, but very legal, and protected by law.

I’m sorry we all fell into this mess. Most of us fell into it blindly. It’s the vasectomy juggernaut doing it’s job.


#72

That’s true. Vasectomy is sold and advertised as a simple, safe, painless procedure. They even say that it is something a good husband/partner should do, since it only takes about 30 minutes to perform with allegedly “mild” discomfort against a lifetime of annoyance for women on the pill.

I have a friend who saw the doctor one day and had his surgery scheduled for the next Saturday. No pre-examinations, no nothing, he only had to fill in a form and that was it. Thankfully he’s got no problems so far despite mild pain, according to him, for 6 months.

My doctor was a supposed big-shot in the field, required me to go through counseling to make sure I didn’t want kids (since I didn’t have any), and also requested a pre-op blood test. He made me feel quite safe and reassured me everything was going fine. But the moment I said I wasn’t doing so great, he turned his back on me and left me stranded.

It’s business as usual for these bastards all around the world.

I saw two other urologists and my GP, they all said the procedure was done correctly and although unusual what happened to me was’t at all abnormal. BS!

I’m currently on antidepressants and my relationship got really worse to the point it is currently hanging by a thread.

Don’t do it. That’s all I can say.


#73

@mdib - Yep, it’s a very safe and simple procedure, I mean look at it this way - when was the last time someone died from a vasectomy? It’s incredibly rare. Pretty much never happens.

People don’t give a shit about chronic pain sufferers. It’s impossible for a healthy person to understand what it’s like to live with horrific pain day in, day out, so when people are bitching and whining about being in pain, healthy folks can’t help but be annoyed or think things like ‘well at least you’re alive’ or ‘at least you’re not dying’ etc. - even though a lot of days many of us feel like dying and have a piss poor quality of life.

Just like many people who are injured in combat, car accidents, work injuries etc. and although they may look ‘fine’ certainly don’t feel fine and aren’t the same people they were beforehand.

It’s sad really, but as long as men aren’t dying from vasectomies and the medical community doesn’t inform every patient about the 1-2% figure (which is about 5-10,000 men in the US alone getting seriously messed up from this crap every year) this madness will continue indefinitely…or until there’s another birth control option for men.


#74

You have to try to tamp down the emotions. The providers need help knowing that they had bad outcomes. This is what they do for a living, they are compartmentalizing so they can put food on the table/provide for their families and future. They don’t set out to dramatically and negatively impact men’s lives but it happens. I have been saying for a while we need to start notifying providers of the bad outcomes they have with notarized letters. A basic form letter and then keep a copy. Very basic information about the sufferer but detailed enough to note the impact and the informed consent documentation if possible as well as a mention of the chance of pain. Until they get a letter and one is sent to the state medical board as well they will not change. The most we can hope for is behavior modification so they let guys know up from the real statistics on pain. That is the most we can hope for. I have to find my old thread about it but until the doctors themselves are notified of their bad outcomes and know they have been documented and the state board has been notified they really have no incentive to change how they sell the procedure.


#75

@vasregret The answer to your question is 2008. If murder suicide post vasectomy counts for anything, then the answer is 2014.

Some might ask why urologists are being targeted. Others don’t have to ask.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-513726/How-vasectomy-operation-killed-husband.html


#76

It’s interesting that these urologists are so worried about themselves. I didn’t hear anything in all that text about how urologists are bs’ing, lying, deceiving, manipulating, downplaying the risks, etc, to men considering having a vasectomy, removal of their prostate, etc.

Far as vasectomy goes, I’d say the vast majority of men that get one were just fine before hand. Who in their right mind wouldn’t get pissed off about such bad outcomes at some point?

I think urology should be held responsible for creating the situation themselves, and conspiring to cover up the truth about pvp/s, sexual side effects, etc for decades. These people bring their problems on themselves.

Far as I’m concerned, I’d say tell the truth regarding all possible risks and side effects beforehand, and men won’t get so pissed off if their number comes up. I’d say learning about all this stuff the hard way is what really gets men pissed off.


#77

Yeah it’s mutilation at the end of the day. Pvp could turn any sane balanced good man into a crazy person. Those article writers blatantly ignore the obvious fact that pain in your balls will make any man crazy. F that psychological bull, long waiting times, etc.

I just came across the packet I got when I went to a required class a month before my vasectomy (which was a total joke. No mention of pvp or serious risks. They show a corny video made in the 1980s). I kid you not I had a panic attack when I saw it as it reminds me of the day my life ended. When I composed myself I went through it and was reminded of the bull shit propaganda they sell us. The ONLY risks mentioned were not being able to have kids if you changed your mind in the future. Oh yeah and an article about the greater risks of having women’s tubes tied. Amazing, the article about risks they included was about women getting their tubes tied. How bout an article about pvps, soft ball hematoma, permanent lumps and disfigurement, potential castration, etc. A shining example of how we live in a feminist society that doesn’t give a damn about men’s issues.


#78

Boy oh boy, I remember Alan Frazier. Sad situation. He was in a lot of pain, felt so alone and without a way out, sad. Pain took control of his life as a whole. (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-neighbors-say-nevada-gunman-had-botched-vasectomy-2013dec20-story.html ) And how our old Yahoo forum/group page was bombarded with reporters. I recall few of us in old group got contacted in regards to this. I had few phone calls, I looked up the name and it was a newsroom reporter from San Diego area.


#79

That’s interesting you were given all the rigamarole before hand. My butcher vasectimist didn’t give me any such opportunity. No warning about pvps, no warning about possible long term recovery. Made it sound like I’d be a fool not to do it. Regardless of what he said, I had my reservations. I felt I was being lied to. The final lie was the day of my vasectomy. I asked him if he had it done to himself. He said no, I haven’t had any kids, no family yet. This dude was in his early 50’s then, and I sensed a lie.

I think men should have to have extensive counsel that covers all bases before having a vasectomy. Once again, I don’t think men would get so upset if they were properly counseled before hand, and had a bad outcome that they knew could happen.

Like yourself, I can relate to the shotty paperwork I was given. My vasectomy risks and side effects paperwork looked like it came from the 70’s-80’s. I posted it to this forum.

Best to not look at that stuff much, and move on.


#80

Amen to that. Since my hospital is a mega health care name they require us to go to a class beforehand. It’s ironic though since they are more detailed as far as prep goes you would think they would mention long term chronic pain as a risk. But it was the opposite. It was presented to us as if we were getting a flu shot. i was one of about 20 men this old female doctor did that day. I was the last she did late into the night. A waiting room full of duped suckers. You have more wisdom than I do to be skeptical beforehand. I kick myself when I think about how I didn’t do any research into the risks. Especially since my wife and I have always been skeptical of modern medicine. She performed three natural births. We don’t give our kids vaccines (no judgment on those who do), and my father beat stage four kidney cancer given 6 months to live through diet and natural remedies. He’s the strongest and healthiest he’s ever been at 55, riding competetive mountain bikes. I’m 29 years old and currently walking with a cane, have back, hip, and thigh pain, and can’t stand or walk for too long before I have to sit down - all due to a “risk free” vasectomy.


#81

@Thissucks I’m right there with you. I can stand long enough to do the dishes…about 10-15 minutes. Back, hip, thigh, and knee. We’re trying to figure out a Disney trip this fall. There is no way I’d last in a 1.5 hour line. My wife is trying to figure out how to get me in with a walker I can sit on. I’m 35 years old. Absolutely amazing.