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Spreading the word to stop the butchering - it's time to take action


#42

I couldn’t agree more about Dr. Jarvi. He’s a fantastic doc and he’s not trying to make money off of PVPS guys - he’s just a urologist who researches and treats PVPS and does a damn good job of it.

For the record, that’s not a knock to Dr P. or Dr. Marks, I think they’re both great docs as well.

My whole life I’ve enjoyed ‘free’ healthcare and haven’t had any unnecessary treatments pushed on me in the name of profit. I’m not saying that all US doctors are putting profits before patients, but when you can make more money by ‘selling’ more tests, procedures, meds, consultations, etc. who’s to say that your doctor won’t sell you more of their services just to make more money?

Ya know, kinda like when you go to a shady mechanic who finds a ton of stuff ‘wrong’ with your car that needs to be fixed. He’s in it for the money, and a for profit healthcare system has the potential to be exactly the same - sure there will be lots of honest ones, but there will be crooks out there just looking to make a buck.


#43

The public healthcare model is probably much more likely to take an objective look at vasectomies and their overall cost to public health. You can’t run from your outcomes if it’s all tied to one health record and payer.


#44

I think I posted the link where my vasectomy urologist was forced to pay 700K disgorgement due to getting caught insider trading.

Ouch.

I also mentioned he, through his partners startup supplement company, was writing “script-looking” referrals for expensive “prostate vitamins”. I saw online that another one of his patients that is into that sort of marketing thing called him out on it and my doctor denied he got a kickback but later admitted it. He wrote his referral number on the slip of paper and you had to give that to get “the discount”. What B.S…

Based on those two things I think a reasonable person could make the assertion that when asked about risk of pain a person like that might choose to downplay it to “sell” vasectomy rather than provide fact based statistics on chronic pain as a vasectomy outcome. Also a guy like that might be thinking that he had to make up the 700K he “lost”.


#45

Yea, I second that. Here in America, it’s all about capitalism. Big brother turns a blind eye to so much. Change within our medical system is a lot like politics. Change doesn’t just happen. Our opioid crisis is another great example of the greed and corruption here. These pills don’t spontaneously hit the streets. Greedy/crooked corporations, and doctors are to blame, and theres no shortage of them either. They also abuse our insurance with their pills, and bs as well. Like vasectomy, it’s an endless circle of madness.

What about these other countries that don’t even treat PvP/s. Is it denial? Stupidity? All of the above?

What about these vasectomy gurus that go to third world countries and do as many vasectomys as they can, in a short period of time. It’s unlikely them countries have many, if any PvP/s experts. Honest bean counters are likely in short supply to. I don’t believe for a second that these gurus do these “mas third world vasectomys” for free either. Here in the states, free is almost unheard of. Free puts just about anyone out of business. These people likely have donations, charity’s, incentives, write off’s, etc as compensation.

The entire world is in the “vasetomania” era. It’s denial, greed, and corruption at its best if you ask me.


#46

It wouldn’t just be the urologists that would take a hit far as 1000’s of jobs lost go either. Most institutions are built on supply and demand.

All kinds of jobs would take a bit hit if vasectomy numbers were cut in half. Ultrasound, pain management, reversal surgeons, other groin surgeons, SA labs, pharma, office personnel, mfg’s of vasectomy related equipment and hardware, electronics, software, and so forth.

I think the same as you all far as a big change is needed, but this is the reality of it.


#47

Is there any way to find out what proportion of nationalities are active on this forum. I’m guessing most are US. The UK doesn’t have a platform like this, at least to my knowledge.
I totally agree with what you are trying to achieve. There is a flimsy house of cards that can be brought down if we could only find the ‘Achilles heal’.


#48

Perhaps attacking the procedure through one of the single payer insurance plans is a possibility. If we made headway and could get it removed from coverage in the U.K. or Canada, we could point back to that for forward movement in the USA.


#49

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if countries with socialized medicine don’t have a budget set forth for male sterilization, and possibly for complications as well. There are way to many pro’s to sterilizing males from a curve over population point of view. My guess would be that, most all countries are all for vasectomies despite the risks on a governmental/political level. I’d put money on these thoughts far as the Chinese go.

Of course there are country/s where vasectomy is illegal, and considered self mutilation, but that’s far from the norm.


#50

The Chinese folks I spoken to have told me that the Chinese culture is an inward looking one that has almost no interest outside of the Chinese borders as far as expansion goes. Therefore, population control cannot be ignored.

I’m not sure why other countries would want to limit population growth. More people means more voters and taxes. The USA population is being bolstered by immigrants due to the low birth rate.

Why are western nations involved in third world population control and spreading vasectomies into areas with no pvps treatment?


#51

I’m sorry brother, but I am 99.99% certain you are mistaken far as the Chinese government goes.

I have about given up on this thread. Even though I feel just as you, and a multitude of others far as change needed within the sale of vasectomy, I don’t know much else I can contribute that wouldn’t come off as argumentative, opposition, etc.

I know a lot about this subject, I have been at this for years. I have seen, and heard things average people were never meant to hear, or see. Some of what I know is so controversial, and so damning, I wouldn’t dare speak of it here.

I feel that the vast majority of men would have much better luck saving their own lives, sanity, and family’s than attempting to correct a global movement such as vasectomy.

I wish you all the best of luck.


#52

Ringo, please PM me. For my own sanity, I need to hear what you’ve learned and what convinced you to stop.


#53

@slowrain, I am very selective, and mindful far as who I share specific sensitive information with. I don’t mind helping others with information far as trying to be helpful, getting some answers, and guidance to their own PvP/s, but some things are better off unsaid. Perhaps another day.

I want you, and anyone else considering attempting to make a difference in the sale, and regulation of vasectomy to do much homework, and research on the entire topic of vasectomy. From where it all started, where we are at today, and everything in-between.

You mentioned something earlier about, who, or what country would want to curve their population? You are aware that we as humans are destroying this planet right? Mankind would kill the last rhino, or elephant for a buck or meal. They would cut down the last trees for firewood, shelter, or farm land. If it was easier, or more economical to bury, or dump garbage, plastics, used motor oil, etc, etc in this earth or oceans than recycle it, that’s what they did, and do.

I assume you are aware that you should count every day that you can buy gasoline/diesel, flip a light switch, purchase food and everyday goods from a store as a blessing right?

Big problems this planet has. From overpopulation, pollution, energy, food shortages, water shortages, and down the line.

From a global directive point of view, vasectomy makes perfect sense despite the risks. From my point of view, that has a lot to do with why it is allowed to be sold the way it is. If they told the truth, numbers of sales, or procedures in general would plummet. The people/entities that steer everyday life on this rock know this. I don’t see it changing anytime soon, if at all.


#54

@slowrain, About what I was saying earlier, It isn’t so much of what I’ve seen and heard that convinced me to “stop” either. It’s more like, everything I’ve seen, heard, know, learned, etc since I became involved.

I don’t like the idea of anyone trying to “stop” anyone from attempting to change the things we speak of. Please don’t let me influence you to “stop” anything. I’ve only tried to enlighten you, or anyone else on what they are up against.

Personally, I think it will take the right people that have the right connections in medical politics, and a ton of money to ever make some real headway. It may take many years, if not generations to see any change in specific country’s.

Over the years, I’ve seen many suggest that a couple successful PvP/s lawsuits will make a difference. While I think that’s possible, I think it would be more likely to see paperwork, and consultations become even more bulletproof in leu of such, rather than big change so swifty.

My opinion is just one out of billions, there is no right, or wrong answer on this stuff. I would like to think someone will take this by the horns one day myself. In the meantime, the vasectomy juggernaut will continue to do its job.


#55

This is kind of a sensitive subject but have you noticed how many urologists have been murdered by patients in the last 5 years? It’s probably 7 or 8. No joke. Some of these shooters are in their 70’s. Usually from “complications following minor surgical procedure.” Only one says prostate surgery. Alan’s specifies the vasectomy. It’s interesting.

I wonder if this is anything medicine takes note of.


#56

I’m sure someone is logging this stuff.

The main thing I will point out about what you are saying is the obvious, the media doesn’t let entire nations know about these stories. If it wasn’t for the internet, we would never know about much of any of this subject.

Your right, this can be a sensitive subject. When this happened to me years ago, I remember thinking, this bs’ing patients into following through, and having a vasectomy based on a bunch bs is a matter of public safety.


#57

I don’t know how one can’t point this out without coming across as the next lunatic. I don’t mean to threaten uro, I just want to point out what’s obvious me. I feel it is clear evidence that there’s more going on than a little pain. This is an ignored mental health crisis. I can say that because I’m inside my body and I know where I used to be and where my mind is now. My cerebellum tingling for three weeks after my vas.


#58

I don’t like talking openly about certain aspects that go hand in hand with pvp/s myself.

After what happened in Reno, it’s not a wonder why. I’m certainly not the next lunatic, and I certainly do not condone such acts, but are we as a collective supposed to sensor our every conversation/topic in leu of a problem we as victims didn’t create?

I totally think that vasectomy inflicts much unforseen/undisclosed damage to a man’s body and mind with sexual side effects, PvP/s, etc.

Anything that could cause such a problem, should’ve been discussed beforehand. What’s happening is purely idiotic from my point of view.


#59

I must say its all a sensitive issue because myself from suffering 6 months of extreme pain and dont know when it will ever end i go through a lot of emotions and one is lots of anger to the person who got me this way. I can understand why people are getting revenge on doctors/ specialists whatever, in this profession they have a licence to kill people, hurt people do whatever without any consequence its WRONG. (Example my friend went in for minor heart surgery and died on the operating table doctor comes out tells family sorry he died during operation happy days who cares they are protected.) Shouldn’t they have some responsibility. I wont even say on here what i feel like doing to this person, who by the way shows no remorse what so ever. Maybe i just need to get over my anger but easier said than done. I work for myself and i am responsible for everything i do if i break a window in your house, if i accidentally hurt a family member i am responsible. .


#60

Doctors don’t set out to hurt people and even though most of us have suffered and had our lives damaged, some of us gravely, we have to keep that in mind. Like us these men and women need to make a living and like us they want to feel good about what they do. I have worked in IT for years and the best jobs were ones where people were appreciative of what I have done for them. It’s always good to be exceeding expectations. This is why no one wants to deal with us. Pain patients just are not the most rewarding guys to deal with. When a doctor does hurt someone they have to compartmentalize and move on, otherwise they could not do what they do so in a way we are a direct thread to their livelihood.

Okay, I’ve tried to be balanced with those thoughts.

Now, I think it is essential that providers do own their bad outcomes. Making a pain guy worse or not helping him is different than taking a perfectly healthy happy guy and altering his life forever. To me, this too is forgivable/acceptable if the risks are clearly laid out to the patient before hand. That means providing prospective patients with realistic statistics about chronic pain as a surgical outcome. Of course to do this providers need to accept and own when a guy comes in and says “I’ve been in pain for 3, 4, 5, 10 years since my vasectomy”. Some do. Many do. But many don’t. That’s where we can help them.

I propose that we prepare a form letter that is a notification of a bad vasectomy outcome. We should ask our members/us to download and fill out the form with a brief history listing dates, procedures, names etc… The letter could then be notarized. Then we mail two letters out. One to the provider and one to the state medical board where the provider practices.

The letter would be something like.

Dear XXXXXX,

We are sending this letter to inform you of a bad outcome of a vasectomy procedure performed by Dr. Robert Smith on December 10, 2XXX on patient Joe Smith of Rockville, MD. Mr. Smith has suffered chronic testicular/groin pain since the surgery that has required him to seek medical and surgical relief beyond the original procedure.

A copy of this letter and further details has been sent to the State Medical board on Mr. Smiths behalf and we are keeping a copy in our files as well.

Sincerely,
Post Vasectomy Pain Victim Advocacy Group

Then we just keep a copy of each letter sent. It’s that simple. Help them to remember and to know they have a bad outcome. It’s hard being a doctor. If I make a mistake it’s results in a bug but isn’t going to mess anyone’s life up. When they have a bad outcome it’s people’s lives. It’s not an easy profession and I think I would probably be tempted to do the same thing. Look the other way and move on. I think if I knew someone was keeping score I would at least modify they way I approach new patients or rethink the way I perform my procedures and even what procedures I can in good conscience perform.


#61

I’m on board with Mike’s plan. I also think we should make sure each letter is accompanied by a bad online review of the doctor. I’ve been surprised by the number of people who check online reviews.